Dear Atheist friends,
As a Christian I have joined your clubs, engaged in forums discussions, and facebook debates. I have encountered atheists from both sides of the spectrum. Some are very polite and well mannered and some are vile hate spewing instigators. (by the way, the Christians have the same spectrum.)
As I see atheists attack Christianity and “expose” the evils of Christianity, I wonder what the motivation is. If the motivation is to “expose” Christians to the “horrors” of the Bible and God, do you think we haven’t read the Bible already? We have read of the wars, we have read of the concepts of slavery and lack of women’s rights. Of course we have. And we have reconciled those 2000 to 4000 year old ideas, very much in the same way you have reconciled the horrors of slavery and a lack of women’s rights that occurred in this very country within the last 100 years. So, I am sorry but we are not going to freak out about ideas from 2000 to 4000 years ago, anymore than you will freak out from the same acts in this country less than 100 years ago.
As I see atheists attack Christianity and “expose” the evils of Christianity, I wonder what the motivation is. If the motivation is to “expose” Christians to the “horrors” of the Bible and God, do you think we haven’t read the Bible already? We have read of the wars, we have read of the concepts of slavery and lack of women’s rights. Of course we have. And we have reconciled those 2000 to 4000 year old ideas, very much in the same way you have reconciled the horrors of slavery and a lack of women’s rights that occurred in this very country within the last 100 years. So, I am sorry but we are not going to freak out about ideas from 2000 to 4000 years ago, anymore than you will freak out from the same acts in this country less than 100 years ago.
But getting to the point of this letter. What is the mission of the outspoken atheist? Is it to prove a sense of “I am RIGHT because I am an atheist and you are WRONG because you are a Christian?” If that is the case, who cares? And besides, you are always calling Christians, the “know it all’s” aren’t you?
Is your intention to hopefully get people to “wake up” and realize that Christianity is a farce? If so, I think your efforts could be better served doing something productive. At least until science proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that God couldn’t possibly exist.
Do you think you are making the world a better place to be? Let’s examine that. By being outspoken, atheists have made strides in removing religion from the public. I agree with that. But I don’t see how you are contributing to that effort by spewing hate. All you are doing is making the Christian take a defensive posture and dig their heels into the ground, that much more.
In my time as a member of the Central Oregon Atheists Club I have learned some amazing things about my faith. The first thing I learned is that my religious beliefs are my business. Not yours. So, for you to “speak out” against my religion is like me speaking out about my religion and trying to force it on you. If I don’t try to force my Christianity on you, I don’t think you should bash it. If you wanted to be productive in your atheism, why not try to encourage a Christian to truly follow the teachings of Jesus. The theme of Jesus’ teachings were to take care of the poor, love everybody, do not retaliate, etc… All good stuff, right? What if all Christians truly followed the teachings of Jesus? Would that be such a bad thing? Would you still despise Christianity as much? Do you despise Jesus, Christianity, or “Christians?” Most of my atheist friends that are outspoken do not have a problem with Christianity as much as they do with what people do with Christianity. Nowhere in the Bible are we instructed to force our teachings in schools, in the courts, or in the government. It’s not what Jesus did, either. In fact Jesus clearly told us that we are to keep religion separate from politics when He instructed us to “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and give to God, what is God’s” I for one, do not want to see my religious beliefs represented by my current government. My government is greedy, exploits the poor and middle class, looks for every excuse to go to war, and the list goes on. My current government does NOTHING the way Jesus taught us and I don’t want his message to be confused or mistaken with what my government is doing. I don’t want “In God we trust” on our money. I don’t want prayer in schools, and I don’t want to see the 10 commandments posted in the court houses. All those things imply that my government believes in the teachings of Jesus, but they sure as heck don’t practice them.
Your brother in life,
Victor
Hi Victor ~
ReplyDeleteRe. the book "I Don't Believe in Atheists" by Christopher Hedges, and in answer to your question today, Chris Hedges is a 'new atheist' and runs with the likes of Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris.
Which is pretty striking, since Chris is a graduate of Harvard Divinity Seminary. I'm interested in reading the book and hearing 'what happened' there!
I thought you might enjoy this interview, as an introduction to his train of thought:
http://www.salon.com/2008/03/13/chris_hedges/
Seems to me you and he are on a parallel journey.
Best regards,
Diane H.
Great post btw. I decided to write a response to clarify why many of us feel the way we do. :)
ReplyDelete//It is directed to the one's who have accused me of child abuse for teaching my children "the golden rule" and other Biblical principles.//
The "golden rule" was around long before Christianity and is not exclusive to Christianity. It could have been borrowed from the Jewish Elder Hillel the Elder, or possibly the code of the Hammurabi a almost 1800 years earlier, Brahman, or maybe theZoroastrans of centuries before, or confucius.. Well, you get the idea.
Also, there are a lot of things that we don't teach from the bible. Thank God! (no pun intended).
//As I see atheists attack Christianity and “expose” the evils of Christianity, I wonder what the motivation is.//
Most of us really don't care what others believe. I could care less if my best friend believes that its faeries that hold the earth together (gravity) and prevent it from falling apart. What bothers us, is the way that religion is used as a rather large club to take away the rights of others. Of course, this isn't every Christian. But when people aren't allowed to get married as one current example, because "the bible says it's wrong and therefore we won't allow it."
//And we have reconciled those 2000 to 4000 year old ideas, very much in the same way you have reconciled the horrors of slavery and a lack of women’s rights that occurred in this very country within the last 100 years. //
Many people defended slavery by citing the bible. Many people used the bible to fight against womens' sufferage. It's a horrible chapter of our history that should not be forgotten. I don't know if you've read any of the stories about children being burned alive and murdered in Africa because they are "witches," but it's pretty horrifying. Because of unexplained things in a village, they pick a scape goat and justify it with Exodus 22:18.
Things got better and our sense of what is right and wrong changed. That is true. But they did not change because of the Bible, they changed despite it. We no longer stone people to death for things like blasphemy or being gay or having a lack of belief, getting raped etc. In America anyway. I can't say the same for the Middle East. While most of those countries that still do that stuff are Muslim, they base a lot of their laws on their old holy books.
I was taught to pray for Truth to be revealed before each session of reading the Bible. If not, I might be as simplistic as others in thinking we are commanded to kill witches. The context of Exodus 22:18 is more about not letting false gods live and was directed at a unique time and place in history... not as a commandment for all time or all people. This is the problem with all bigots and atheists are bigots in that they pick and choose out of context verses to purposefully use against Christians. My Christianity is not about other Christians because like all us humans, they are flawed. My Christianity is strictly about my relationship with Christ, the Holy Spirit and God. I pray for Truth and guidance in daily life. I see many trying to sway Victor here but I doubt that will happen. Victor knows a much greater Companion in Christ than any logical anti_Christian could overcome.
DeleteBeing a Christian is not about any church or religion. This is where many Christians and atheists together have it wrong. The judgmental churches and atheists will be locked in a bashing battle till the end. Meanwhile, true Christians will be out of the fray as they grow and mature in their knowledge of Christ through guidance of the Holy Spirit, confessing their sins to God on a daily basis to keep the channel open, to remain humble and keep growing in the love, forgiveness, gratitude and understanding. There is no growth to be had with arrogance and bashers on both sides are arrogant, thus unable to learn beyond their own false self-righteousness.
DeleteWell, for centuries, the wisest theologians in the history of the church had used that verse to justify burning "witches." In fact, no one in the church seems to be standing up for the children in africa who have been suffering horrible deaths because they are "witches."
DeleteI'm wondering if you even know what the word bigot is. I think you think that it means anyone who has come to a different conclusion than you have. What lead me away from being a believer was actually sitting down, reading the bible and examining the arguments for God. With the former, I just found too many things that were inconsistent with any position and the later were all just full of logical fallacies. That is the conclusion that I came too, but I am willing to be swayed. Victor has come to a different conclusion than I have, which is fine. I like talking to the guy and seeing where he is coming from.
I commend Victor for actually engaging in conversation rather than just calling everyone he encounters that disagrees with him "bigots." Engaging in healthy conversations on any topic is the best way to find out the truth. It is totally arrogant to just assume you "know" the truth about anything really. You seem to accuse people who think they know as being arrogant, and then seem to claim that you "know" the truth. I could very well be wrong in my position, but I am willing to admit that. Hence the conversations.
//But getting to the point of this letter. What is the mission of the outspoken atheist? Is it to prove a sense of “I am RIGHT because I am an atheist and you are WRONG because you are a Christian?” If that is the case, who cares? And besides, you are always calling Christians, the “know it all’s” aren’t you?//
ReplyDeleteWe don't care what people believe. Again, its because these, what we see as unfounded beliefs, are sometimes used to do some pretty horrific stuff. For a long time, we've been misrepresented in our views and smeared as horrible people. We're tired of it frankly. We're tired of being shunned and threatened. (Like recently, Jessica Ahlquist and all the hate mail she got) We're tired of remarks like when president Bush 1 said that atheists shouldn't even be considered citizens. We're finally standing up for ourselves. People who didn't follow the same belief system as those in power haven't really fared well, historically speaking.
//Is your intention to hopefully get people to “wake up” and realize that Christianity is a farce? If so, I think your efforts could be better served doing something productive. At least until science proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that God couldn’t possibly exist. //
We're not angry at the ideas themselves. We're angry at all the problems that they cause. If every Christian was like you, not forcing stuff down our throats, keeping religion out of the government, I doubt anyone would really give a damn. Religion gets put on a pedestal. In some cases it's really sickening. Just look at what the Vatican gets away with. They can avoid the law because they are under their canonical law. Another example is religious preschools and day cares. In quite a number of states, they are immune from safety regulations. This has even resulted in a number of deaths. Faith healing is another example. How many children have suffered horrible drawn out deaths that could have been prevented with simple medical intervention because their parents didn't believe in it? If people kept their ideas and religion to themselves, we wouldn't care. I think people are just sick of what's going on. This isn't every Christian. I know it doesn't apply to you.
//But I don’t see how you are contributing to that effort by spewing hate. All you are doing is making the Christian take a defensive posture and dig their heels into the ground, that much more. //
I agree with you here. People do tend to get pretty heated about these issues though on both sides.
// If I don’t try to force my Christianity on you, I don’t think you should bash it. //
Exactly. Unfortunately, with many of us atheists, our experiences have been with Christians trying to force their beliefs and stances on stuff down our throats. It pervades government decisions which affect all of the population. It's political suicide to say that you don't believe in some sort of God.
// If you wanted to be productive in your atheism, why not try to encourage a Christian to truly follow the teachings of Jesus. //
ReplyDeleteThis is the “no true scotsman” fallacy in my opinion. The problem is that no one really seems to agree on what Jesus means or the teachings of the bible. To you, Jesus was a cool guy that taught about love, despite telling his followers to sell their clothes for swords or saying that he didn't come in peace. Others would take those statements and come to a different conclusion. The WBT church that's constantly on the news believes just as strongly that the bible means that soldiers and gays must die. I've had so many conversations with people where they will tell me that "well so and so church is wrong" when it comes to deriving their teachings from the bible.
// All those things imply that my government believes in the teachings of Jesus, but they sure as heck don’t practice them. //
Amen.
You seem like a really good guy, but this is where we are coming from. I know many of my remarks to not apply to you, but this is kind of how we see things. Sorry about the long post.
I think this picture kind of describes how a lot of us atheists see religion when we read about stuff in the headlines. (note, you have to click on the image to enlarge it)
ReplyDeletehttp://i.imgur.com/mpQA0.jpg