I think it is important to point out, that although neither one of us changed our position, we had a good conversation without slinging insults and without getting personal. This is the goal of my blogging. To show more examples of how atheists and christians can completely disagree on a topic and still be civil to each other. He is still an atheist (he even has the atheist logo tattooed over his heart) and I am still a christian, but we get along.
The conversation was based on my last blog about "Is God really a jealous God?" This was Jay's comment:
Jay: if that was the case. that he is a jealous God, which he is, and your explanation makes some sense. Then why is the "devil" so well behaved? Isn't jealousy one of the seven deadly sins? let me explain my point further. Why is the devil a perfect gentleman, never talking back, never explaining why he does something, never complaining. But one time... he challenges god (bets him). But thats it. for a guy that constantly gets the short end of the stick. He never tries to explain his side of the story, or complains, etc. like the christian God does. Not even close! If you ask me God is an awfully whiny, jealous, unfair, hypocritical, narcissist and most definitely needs to learn some gentleman's manners from satan.
for those of you besides Victor reading this.. I'm not a satan worshipper. just playing the devils advocate.
^_^ Pun intended. Nor do I hate your God.... wait. yes I do. I hate the idea of "that" God.
Me: Everyone reading this: Jay totally worships satan, don't let him fool you. He even has a goat head mask. Ive seen it.
Me: but to answer your question, Jay most of what you said about the devil comes from "man," not what the Bible says. The Bible is very vague about Satan. other than he tried to overthrow God, which is quite a big deal, but doesn't necessarily live up to the hype of his evil that "men" have attributed him to.
Jay: good point but why wouldn't god give him a fair trial? why not let him says his peace while he blames everything on him? and are some of Gods traits the same as he tells you not to have, or becareful of?
Me: We don't know what happened exactly, when satan was expelled from heaven. The Bible doesn't say. And I don't try to put myself on the same plane of thinking as God. I don't have a true concept of infinity like He does. Without a true understanding of infinity, it is difficult to make sense of the "here and now" when the "here and now" is all we know.
Jay: hmmm yes but then why the human traits if hes an all knowing God and why the pathetic jealousy and narcissism. I know your answer to this is what you just said. but it doesn't satisfy my reasoning. :)
Me: well I didn't write it to satisfy your reasoning. I wrote it because I was asked a question. Besides when have you ever known me to try and convert you or get you to see things my religous way. I am just trying to get christians and atheists to quit fighting, and focus on real problems that they can actually solve if they worked together.
I think whether you agree with my reasoning or not, you can still find it valid and appreciate where I am coming from, in a subjective manner.
Jay: yup i can.
Me: and see? That is how a christian and an atheist can agree to disagree and coexist. Now we can stop talking about religion and focus on how we are going to get our country back from greedy politicians
and bankers.
Now, I know some people will say "that's great, I wish their could be more talks like that too. But the christians are too intent to try to tell everyone how to live their lives."
That statement is completely false. I don't know any christians who try to tell people how to live. I hear about a couple of churches that try to, but I don't listen to them, just like atheists don't listen to them. Some will say that politicians are always making laws with religious content and I want you to know, I will vote against them every time I see them on the ballot. Those aren't christians trying to tell you what to do, they are politicians trying to tell you what to do. And ALL politicians try to tell us how we should live our lives. They are doing what they do because they are politicians trying to appeal to certain special interest groups, not because they are christians. And don't even try to play the "well they do these things in the name of God" card, or I will pull out how many white supremacist groups do what they do in the name "preserving the true American way." You don't want me comparing you to nazi skinheads do you? They claim to be true American Patriots. You really think it's fair to "generalize" a group, based on what a small percentage of them do? Whether they have power or not, they don't get to speak for the entire group. And like I said, instead of arguing with me, why not join me in taking them down? Work with christians like me who don't want religion in politics. We are both fighting the same things but from different angles.
How powerful of a message would it be, if atheists and christians worked together on eliminating the same things they despised about "religion?" It can be done my friends. Indeed, it can.
To play advocatus diaboli I wanted to point out first, how many people the so called “Prince of Darkness” murders in the bible, vs God. The answer is orders of magnitude. Is Godjealous? There are plenty of other examples of him ordering the genocide of cities of people who believe other religions that aren’t too hard to look up. Did God create evil? Yes? No? It’s really the big book of multiple choice in my opinion. You can justify lots of positions in the bible. I think that this is why there are so many denominations of people who follow the same book.
ReplyDelete“Jay: good point but why wouldn't god give him a fair trial? why not let him says his peace while he blames everything on him? and are some of Gods traits the same as he tells you not to have, or be careful of?”
My comment here, would be “who is God to judge his own creation?”
“That statement is completely false. I don't know any christians who try to tell people how to live. I hear about a couple of churches that try to, but I don't listen to them, just like atheists don't listen to them. Some will say that politicians are always making laws with religious content and I want you to know, I will vote against them every time I see them on the ballot.”
I’m really glad that you take the stance you do. We need to protect everyone’s freedoms and not take them away based on the beliefs of others. I want to point out what’s been happening with the gay marriage and evolution thing. The only arguments that have been presented for either really boil down to “well the bible/Koran says that it’s wrong.” When something like these issues get “voted down” it always has religious roots.
While I disagree with you here, it’s nice to have these kinds of rational discussions.
In regards to the number of deaths by God; I don't think God looks at death the same way we do. When we die, we don't know what exactly happens. Because of that unknowing, we fear death. We fear the pain that is sometimes associated with death. And we fear the finality of death.
DeleteThat's because we don't have an eternal perspective. Yes, we can define eternity, but we don't really understand it because we have never experienced it.
Similar to a man saying he totally knows what child berth is like because he was in the delivery room. Any woman will tell you that watching a delivery is nothinkg like actually delivering a baby.
That's how eternity is to us. For God, people die and they get to be with Him. Not a bad gig. In fact, I would go a step further and say the people who are dead, are glad they are dead because they no longer have the problems they had on earth.
Of course, I am speculating because I have not actually talked to a person who has died. But from an eternal perspective, death isn't such a big deal. At least not after it actually happens.
From the things I've read, it seems like there is a lot of speculation about what happens in heaven, even though we can't really know it exists, much less what it's like.
DeleteOne thing that this makes me wonder with the eternity idea, is that if life's not that big of a deal, in terms of not even being a blip on the radar screen, would that undermine Jesus' sacrifice? He suffered and died, but it really wasn't all that significant in terms of time nor for his reward, which was to sit at the right hand of God forever.
//One thing that this makes me wonder with the eternity idea, is that if life's not that big of a deal, in terms of not even being a blip on the radar screen, would that undermine Jesus' sacrifice?//
DeleteI think the point I am trying to make is that "because" of Jesus' sacrifice, the rest of life is but a blip on the radar screen. The whole point of the sacrifice was so that no matter how bad, dumb, mean, or ignorant we are, we can still be with God.
I had this discussion with an atheist friend of mine who felt that the whole "accepting" God's grace was just arrogance on God's part. This was my response.
"If I show up at your house with a brand new BBQ, and you say 'no thanks, I am not interested' then you really can't get too ticked off at me because you don't have a BBQ."
That's kind of how God's grace works. You don't have to earn it, work for it, or even deserve it. But if you refuse it, don't be mad at God that you don't have it.
What I meant by the Jesus' sacrifice (which his father made him do), was only an afternoon. Someone, from the perspective of eternity, really wouldn't be sacrificing a whole lot to spend one earth afternoon in order to save peoples' souls.
DeleteI like your BBQ analogy, except that you really don't seem like the type of guy that would burn down my house for not accepting it, or torture me in your basement while keeping me alive forever in order to pay for not accepting your BBQ.
I agree with your argument about the perspective of an afternoon on the cross in comparison to eternity. I even use the same type of comparison when describing why God allows people to suffer and die. In the scope of eternity, pain on earth is miniscule.
DeleteAnd with the BBQ analogy, God doesn't torture someone for not choosing Him.
What he says is "You have done wrong. The penalty is death and suffering. However, my son has decided to pay the penalty for you so you can be with me."
At this point the person has the choice to choose God, or be stubborn and choose the death and suffering.
You can't be mad at God when He gave you a choice.
I think we might be misunderstanding what each other means somewhere in here. =P
Delete//I even use the same type of comparison when describing why God allows people to suffer and die. In the scope of eternity, pain on earth is miniscule. //
This belief/faith in eternity is motivation for some to do good, while for others, it removes any hesitation for them to do things like become suicide bombers or treat our planet like some disposable packaging. It terrifies me more than anything. (That's a whole different conversation all together)
What about all the verses talking about "BBQing" people for not following his rules? I think to give someone the option of following them or suffering isn't really much of a choice. It's more of a coercion tactic. Hell is what waits for people who do not follow him, according to these verses. But these verses sound to me like they point to people who don't go to heaven just die, but here, it sounds like all dogs, I mean people, go to heaven. It's really hard to get a sense for anyone really reading the bible it seems to come to a solid conclusion on the subject. One could pick and choose anything from the bible to make their claim. Everything else is just pure speculation. You could point to these verses to say that God authored Evil, but in these verses, it seems like he didn't. This is why many atheists, mostly those that were former Christians like myself stopped believing in the God of the Bible. Things get really ambiguous in our eyes.
I think what I am trying to get across is that I don't think that promising someone riches vs letting them be tortured forever seems like something a just God would do. It's an infinite punishment for a finite crime.
In Nazi Germany, many people only became members of the Nazi because they were afraid of them, or they wanted jobs among many other reasons. Those that opposed them or refused to cooperate with them were imprisoned, tortured, put into camps etc. With the exception of people of certain birth taken away for being gay, Jewish, Gypsy etc, what about those that were taken away because they had different political ideals. You could hypothetically have worked with the Nazi party and have become rather rich. Many businessmen did. They were given a choice weren't they? I don't think we would ever think that this is something just.
(I'm not comparing Christians to Nazis btw. I know most are good people. I just want to use an example of choosing horrible suffering vs the possibility of being helped by the forces in control.) I hope that even though you will probably disagree with me, that you might at least see where someone like me is coming coming from.
Btw, I'm hoping that I am not coming across as an a**hole in my comments. I really do enjoy these kinds of conversations. :)
I don't think you are being an ***hole at all. This is exactly why I do these blogs in the first place. I would be cautious to use the bible as the "authority" on God. Personally, I didn't come to know God through the Bible and I know several christians with the same story. The Bible is considered to be God's infallible word. That means truthful and good for teaching. We have to be careful about interpretations of the Bible.
DeleteThe verse you gave, are good examples of what I would describe "points out of context." Obvioulsly the Bible wasn't written at one time, and the books were put together based on lot's of prayer and what the overall "context" of God's message was.
The Bible itself tells story after story of God trying to reconcile with man, on terms that man could actualy understand. Yet time after time in the Bible, we see God giving himself a "facepalm" because man just can't "get it." That is the context of what I get from the Old Testament.
Enter the "Jesus" story, or the New Testament. God is fed up with man, and that fact that generation aftger generation refuses to "get it." So God says "I am going to make a way, that no matter how dumb you are, how ignorant you are, or how misguided you are, you can still be with me."
Bible scholars agree that the Bible is ambiguous at best, when it comes to painting a "black and white" picture of the road to salvation. That is why we currently have over 130,000 different doctrines, under the heading of "christian." Yes, that's right, 130,000 doctrines.
You offer points on both sides of the argument, in regards to God's nature. Is He loving, merciful, and forgiving? Or is He wrathful, just, and punishing? You can find verses to support both. SO what is the correct answer? I don't really know for 100%. So since I don't know, I am not going to live my life condemning people on obscure, ambiguous, 4000 year old writings in a different language.
I believe the Bible is truthful and useful for teaching. There are alot of good lessons the Bible teaches us. There are also some things that I read and just scratch my head on. I will focus on the parts that I understand, or at least feel like I understand.
I am currently researching all the times "hell" is mentioned in the Bible and the actual context it was used in. Watch for the blog. I still have to come up with a catchy title.
by the way, thanks for posting the links to those verse. You did alot of the research for me. In fact, I think you found one that I had missed.
DeleteTHanks.
//I would be cautious to use the bible as the "authority" on God.//
DeleteThat is a really interesting take. I actually grew up Catholic, so my interpretation growing up of the bible is through that lens. There were a lot of things which aren't in the bible, but the church teaches them anyway. The impression I got as a kid (with the lens I see in hindsight) was that if the bible says something the church agrees with, cite the bible. If it disagrees then ignore it, or try to (poorly) explain the difference away. Often my questions would be redirected rather than answered. This bothered me. a lot. Not so much when I was younger, since I didn't question the authority of the church, but rather when I got older.
//The verse you gave, are good examples of what I would describe "points out of context."//
This is a good thing to point out, as people do cherry pick verses to support or discredit certain dogmas in church. But, how else are you supposed to show someone something in the bible without citing whole chapters? I tried to just cite the verses so you could quickly see the references. Some verses in the bible like off the top of my head, Deuteronomy 22:28-29 have no real context in which I think it's okay.
"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not ledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."
Context is important either way. I see a lot of things which are used by Christians and the Bible citing itself in prophecies for example. But when you look at them in context, they are terrible. I put a few examples but moved them to the bottom, since they are kind of a sidebar conversation*
//Obvioulsly the Bible wasn't written at one time, and the books were put together based on lot's of prayer and what the overall "context" of God's message was.//
I think my question would be why God appears to be a slightly different person in the different books. It's almost like there were different interpretations of God from different people. Why say so many conflicting things about God? Like is he changing, or unchanging? (I can cite verses for both) This is something that to me points out the Bible being written by man and not inspired by God. People all over the world pray, yet based on their life experiences, they interpret it in a way that works with their religion. I'd say a Muslim or a Hindu or Norse, would take the same “spiritual” experience and say that it was a sign from their own God.
//Yet time after time in the Bible, we see God giving himself a "facepalm" because man just can't "get it." That is the context of what I get from the Old Testament. //
DeleteFrom my reading, when the OT God wasn't happy, he would wipe whole races of people off the face of the earth, or throw the baby out with the bath water.
I apologize about skipping around. Sometimes, in these kinds of talks, I feel like I'm having a bunch of parallel discussions at once since some issues seem to me to bring up other issues. I know it's not really fair to make a bunch of arguments and then expect you to try to answer all of them. I do look forward to your post on hell. :)
*Jesus not having his legs broken after being taken down from the cross. John 19:36 “These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken.'” I've been referred to the verses from Exodus and Numbers. These sound good, until you read them in context. The references are about how to prepare the passover lamb and say nothing about a prophecy. Psalms 34 is also used, but again in context, its about righteous people in general. When you use pick and choose stuff like that, you can forget about other verses. Taken out of context, you could say that according to Lamentations and another chapter of Psalms this prophecy was not fulfilled.
Another example, Jesus riding in on a donkey to fulfill prophecy. According to what I've been told, this is following the prophecy in Zechariah. In context, or when you read the next few verses, it's pretty unimpressive. It sounds more like they are talking about an Earthly king.
I will admit I use a broad sense of the word "context" because I lump the Old and New Testament into groups of context, and then the whole Bible as another.
DeleteAnd like I said, there is a lot about the Bible that we just simply don't understand. Bible scholars constantly wrestle over the details of the Bible.
But there are some things that all doctrines and all Bible scholars agree on. And they are that God created everything, that Jesus is His son, that Jesus paid the ultimate price so we could be with God forever.
Those main points are points that the bible, scholars and all christian doctrines agree on. From there, I will admit, they go in 130,000 different directions, but they all stay true to the main points that the christian faith teaches us.
As far as the "details" of the Bible go, I honestly think they mean something different for everybody. The Bible says that God meets us where we are. In the Bible Paul says "all is permitted, but I wont be mastered by anything" and then in Colossians it talks about having freedom from human rules, and that our freedom has been purchased by the Lord.
This is the cross roads where alot of atheists found themselves saying "The Bible is so confusing, so God must be wrong."
I found myself doing the same thing but instead I just said "God isn't wrong, maybe this Bible isn't as perfect as people make it out to be." At the end of the day, the Bible was written by men. We don't know how "God inspired" it really is, because each book doesn't have a decleration of it's sovereignty. (I am pretty sure I spelled that wrong but you get the idea)
At some point we have to take the Bible with a grain of salt, read it in it's entire context, and realize that it was written by man. We don't know for sure what parts of the Bible are supposed to be taken literal and which parts are supposed to be taken figuretively.
Even the book of Job is considered to be a fable, by alot of scholars.
Gotcha about the context thing.. In my experience, the OT is a lot of picking what people like, and ignoring the rest. This applies a lot to the NT from what I've seen as well. 10 commandments, great. Ban on forbidding the mixing of fabrics (Leviticus 19:19), the ban on shellfish (Leviticus 11:10), not letting people who lost a testicle into church (Deut 23:2), ban on Tattoos (Lev 19:28), football (Lev 11:8), and round haircuts (Lev 19:27) we just ignore..Even in the new testament there are verses addressing women's roles, which I find kind of disturbing. Women with braided hair or wearing any gold to church (1 Timothy 2:9) or women shouldn't speak in church (1 Corinthians 14:34-35).. Well, you get the idea..
Delete// The Bible says that God meets us where we are. //
Would this not really apply to almost any book? I finally started to read Goethe last year. At one point I read "The Sorrows of Young Werther." It's basically a guy who falls in love and has his heart broken. I think I sympathized more with the character because I've been there.. Had I read it maybe ten years ago, I don't think I would have really connected with the character as much.
//This is the cross roads where alot of atheists found themselves saying "The Bible is so confusing, so God must be wrong." //
I can only speak for myself and my experiences on this one. For me, I just didn't feel like I really had a reason to believe once I started to ask questions. Sometimes I would get a round about answer or just told to read the bible and I would understand. I think it was just assumed that I wouldn't. I did.
//maybe this Bible isn't as perfect as people make it out to be."//
That's interesting.. I have never really heard a christian take that sort of stance before.
//At some point we have to take the Bible with a grain of salt, read it in it's entire context, and realize that it was written by man. We don't know for sure what parts of the Bible are supposed to be taken literal and which parts are supposed to be taken figuratively.//
I'm curious as to if we're supposed to take it with a grain of salt, then why even read it in the first place?
I think we can agree that there are a lot of fables in the bible. The story of the Jews coming out of slavery in Egypt has no real evidence that it ever happened, but as a child it was always preached like it had really happened in my Church. When it came to the flood, I remember it also being taught as happening, but I was Catholic. I don't know how any of our priests would have responded to a question about that. Of course, Jesus said that it really happened in Matthew 24:38-39. I think even a lot of smart Christians probably believe that this is too a myth.
Thanks for the discussion and straight answers. When difficult questions get asked, my experience with people just choosing to ignore them has been frustrating.
Here is an article that you might be interested in reading. It's about ten years old, but still rather fascinating. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/09/books/new-torah-for-modern-minds.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
Delete//Gotcha about the context thing.. In my experience, the OT is a lot of picking what people like, and ignoring the rest. This applies a lot to the NT from what I've seen as well. 10 commandments, great. Ban on forbidding the mixing of fabrics (Leviticus 19:19), the ban on shellfish (Leviticus 11:10), not letting people who lost a testicle into church (Deut 23:2), ban on Tattoos (Lev 19:28), football (Lev 11:8), and round haircuts (Lev 19:27) we just ignore..Even in the new testament there are verses addressing women's roles, which I find kind of disturbing. Women with braided hair or wearing any gold to church (1 Timothy 2:9) or women shouldn't speak in church (1 Corinthians 14:34-35).. Well, you get the idea..//
DeleteThe Old Testament tells the story about where christians came from. I am not sure how much of it is meant to be a teaching tool of how to live. It saeems to me, and several scholars, that it simply paints a portrait of the history of christianity. Just becaUSE IT IS A PART OF OUR HISTORY DOESN'T MEAN WE SHOULD TRY TO LIVE THAT WAY TODAY. tHE HISTORY OF aMERICA IS NOT (sorry about the caps lock, I didnt realize it, and I am too lazy to retype) a story of how we should be living today. And think about if anyone tried to hold Americans accountable for the crimes committed in the name of "democracy" and expansion. They would be laughed at. And yet, some people look at the christian history and try to hold us accountable today, for things done 4000 years ago.
//I can only speak for myself and my experiences on this one. For me, I just didn't feel like I really had a reason to believe once I started to ask questions. Sometimes I would get a round about answer or just told to read the bible and I would understand. I think it was just assumed that I wouldn't. I did.//
What sticks out to me about this statement is that you talk about what "people" told you to do. I.E. "read the Bible and you would understand." I think this is what has kept me from becoming an atheist. I decided a long time ago that "man" doesn't have the answers to God. And christians can be one of the worst people to talk to, if you want a historical or logical representation of God. And because of that, I have been able to "listen" to people but then ask myself "does this guy really know what he is talking about? Where does he get his authority from?" Authority must be deserved and earned, so when someone starts spouting off at the mouth about what I have to do, or what God wants for me, I just politely nod my head and say thanks. My pursuits have come from studying people I respect. People who have honeslty researched and studied God, from beyond the sunday school lessons we get at church.
//maybe this Bible isn't as perfect as people make it out to be."//
That's interesting.. I have never really heard a christian take that sort of stance before.//
There are several christians who question what "man" says about the Bible. I don't think the "church" is anywhere near what God wanted it to be. In fact, as I read the entire Old Testament, I see story after story of God trying to "get through" to His people and they screw it up every time. Every generation felt they were in the "right" and we later learn that they were completely wrong. I don't think this church generation is any different. Which is why I put weight in my idea that God finally just decided to make a way for us to be with Him, no matter how stupid we acted.
//I'm curious as to if we're supposed to take it with a grain of salt, then why even read it in the first place?//
Deletebecause like I said earlier, it is our history. If we don't study our history, we are doomed to repeat it's mistakes.
//Thanks for the discussion and straight answers. When difficult questions get asked, my experience with people just choosing to ignore them has been frustrating.//
Thank you, for participating in the discussion. I will never intentionally ignore anything, but sometimes I get overwhelmed and over look something. Feel free to repost, or even send me a "reminder" to get back to you if I havent responded within about 5 days. victorbrawnwer@aol.com
//The Old Testament tells the story about where christians came from. I am not sure how much of it is meant to be a teaching tool of how to live. //
DeleteBut what about when Jesus says things like I have come not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it? (Matthew 5:17-18) Here are some other New Testament scriptures that seem to point to obeying the OT laws (at the time, the testament) or at least echoing laws that are in there.
Most of that “history” is turning out to have no evidence after more than a quarter century of archeological digging. I think I might have sent that link to you already. Put I posted it here for anyone else who want's to reference it or check it out.
//I can only speak for myself and my experiences on this one. For me, I just didn't feel like I really had a reason to believe once I started to ask questions. Sometimes I would get a round about answer or just told to read the bible and I would understand. I think it was just assumed that I wouldn't. I did.//
//My pursuits have come from studying people I respect. People who have honeslty researched and studied God, from beyond the sunday school lessons we get at church. //
But what about everyone else? Do they just accept stuff on “faith”? Didn't you first believe the Bible before you studied it? With the Bible, again, it was once I sat down and read it that I really started to disbelieve. When I started examining the arguments that were presented outside the bible, it sealed that coffin. (The cosmological argument/Kalam argument etc)
I think I feel a disconnect here, since I've always been told that the Bible is the main source of authority on the christian way of life. Of course we both know that it wasn't until the fourth century that the books to use were even determined. Of course, growing up Catholic, there was always the ideas coming from different councils and “prayer.” Interesting how that worked with purgatory or maybe it was limbo.
//Every generation felt they were in the "right" and we later learn that they were completely wrong. I don't think this church generation is any different. //
Isn't this what Jesus came down for? To straighten everything out and clear stuff up? Stuff like slavery is clearly endorsed by the Bible, but we no longer follow that. Does that mean God was wrong about that?
//I will never intentionally ignore anything et al.//
I'm not in a real hurry with this discussion. As far as I know, the internet isn't going anywhere. We both have lives, and I kind of just see it as an ongoing dialogue. If I don't address one of your points, please point it out. I too, sometimes will forget about something in my own crazy train of thought. :) I would be interested in joining your organization, however, I actually live in California. =/
One more thing I wanted to add about the BBQ analogy.. I had been thinking about this a bit. There was something else that really bothered me about it, but I couldn't put my finger on it. I'm pretty sure at points I'm repeating myself. But I think what bothers me is the difference. If you offer me a BBQ and I turn it down, I'm only out a BBQ that I didn't have before. Kind of my "default" position. But with God, if you don't take the "BBQ" you burn forever. This almost sounds like the default position is hell, but you can accept not going by worshiping him. So, does this mean that we were all created to go to hell, but can chose not to go by following God? Even if you disagree, I hope that you can at least see where I am coming from here.
DeleteTo play advocatus diaboli I wanted to point out first, how many people the so called “Prince of Darkness” murders in the bible, vs God. The answer is orders of magnitude. Is Godjealous? There are plenty of other examples of him ordering the genocide of cities of people who believe other religions that aren’t too hard to look up. Did God create evil? Yes? No? It’s really the big book of multiple choice in my opinion. You can justify lots of positions in the bible. I think that this is why there are so many denominations of people who follow the same book.
ReplyDelete“Jay: good point but why wouldn't god give him a fair trial? why not let him says his peace while he blames everything on him? and are some of Gods traits the same as he tells you not to have, or be careful of?”
My comment here, would be “who is God to judge his own creation?”
“That statement is completely false. I don't know any christians who try to tell people how to live. I hear about a couple of churches that try to, but I don't listen to them, just like atheists don't listen to them. Some will say that politicians are always making laws with religious content and I want you to know, I will vote against them every time I see them on the ballot.”
I’m really glad that you take the stance you do. We need to protect everyone’s freedoms and not take them away based on the beliefs of others. I want to point out what’s been happening with the gay marriage and evolution thing. The only arguments that have been presented for either really boil down to “well the bible/Koran says that it’s wrong.” When something like these issues get “voted down” it always has religious roots.
While I disagree with you here, it’s nice to have these kinds of rational discussions.
THose are good questions and I would encourage you to join my atheist club and post these on our discussionm wall. We also have online meetings so you can participate even if you dont live in Central Oregon.
Deletehttp://www.meetup.com/Bend-Oregon-Atheists/
//My comment here, would be “who is God to judge his own creation?”//
DeleteThis comment reminds of me of when my kids ask "who am I" to tell them what to do? My response is "I am your freaking father, that's who! And as long as I provide the roof over your head, the clothes on your back, and the food in your belly, you will live by my rules and do what I say."
I think God's version might be similar but more along the lines of "I am your Father and as long as you breathe the oxygen I provided, with the lungs I provided, and live on the earth that I made, I will hold you accountable for what I want."
I often listen to my atheist friends talk about how much they don't like God and all His "rules." It makes me wonder how many of them truly don't believe in God, vs are just being rebelious children. I don't believe in the easter bunny and I never procalim my distatste for the ideas that go along with "belief" in the easter bunny. If I don't believe something is real, I don't give it much credence.
Now I know there is a difference because politicians don't proclaim a belief in the easter bunny and try to make laws. But I can assure you, the politicians talking about God, do not believe in God. At least noit most of them. They have just learned that they can create division amongst the people, by proclaiming a belief in God. If they keep us divided, we won't unite and expose them for the frauds they really are.
//My comment here, would be “who is God to judge his own creation?”//
DeleteIf I built a deck in my backyard (pretending for a moment that I have a backyard lol), and the thing collapsed, who would be to blame? I would have to figure out where I went wrong. Maybe it was a mistake going for the really cheap wood, or not tightening the bolts down etc. But ultimately, the failure would it would be my responsibility.
//"I am your freaking father, that's who! And as long as I provide the roof over your head, the clothes on your back, and the food in your belly, you will live by my rules and do what I say."//
I can see what you are trying to say. Here is where I see a drastic difference. Let's say you came home and your child was doing something blasphemous, like say, ripping pages out of the bible, or wrote something pretty offensive about God on the wall. I don't think you would drown her in the bathtub to “teach her a lesson.” Truly this would be horrible. I think any reasonable parent might put their child in time out and explain “why we don't do that.”
//I think God's version might be similar but more along the lines of "I am your Father and as long as you breathe the oxygen I provided, with the lungs I provided, and live on the earth that I made, I will hold you accountable for what I want." //
So a child should respect a parent because they gave them life? What about a child with an abusive parent who beats them on a nightly basis? Should they respect their parent?
//I often listen to my atheist friends talk about how much they don't like God and all His "rules." It makes me wonder how many of them truly don't believe in God, vs are just being rebelious children. I don't believe in the easter bunny and I never procalim my distatste for the ideas that go along with "belief" in the easter bunny. If I don't believe something is real, I don't give it much credence.... //
I don't think you have to believe in something to have an opinion about it. I don't really need to believe in Quetzalcoatl in order to feel that the Aztec Gods' order of human sacrifice was really messed up. The human sacrifice doesn't bother me much because we don't have people sacrificing other people in the name of that religion, or changing our laws based on the Aztec beliefs.
//I can assure you, the politicians talking about God, do not believe in God.//
I don't think you can really know what someone truly believes and doesn't believe. I would never tell a Christian, “you don't really believe that, do you?” When reading CS Lewis' books, the reasons he gave for when he was an atheist seemed pretty dumb reasons in my book, but I have to take him at his word.
//If I built a deck in my backyard (pretending for a moment that I have a backyard lol), and the thing collapsed, who would be to blame? I would have to figure out where I went wrong. Maybe it was a mistake going for the really cheap wood, or not tightening the bolts down etc. But ultimately, the failure would it would be my responsibility.//
DeleteYou see, I don't think there is a "punishment" so to speak. The punishment only comes in, if you refuse grace. And if you refuse grace, how can you be upset by the consequences? The punishment is based on sin. You do something wrong, there are consequences. However, Jesus stepped in, paid your debt, so you don't have to suffer the consequences of your transgretions.
However, if you say "No thank you" and you deny grace, then you are forced to deal with the consequences of your transgressions.
But what does all that really mean? Can you accept Jesus 5 minutes before death? The Bible implies that you can. Can you accept Jesus 5 minutes AFTER you die? The Bible doesn't say.
I ascribe to the idea that the Bible is very confusing and ambiguous at best. From what I read about God, He (if there is a gender) is sovereign and loves us. He went through a lot of trouble to try and make things make sense for us. The Bible was never intended to be written. That is something people need to realize. We never hear Jesus saying "Now shut up and write this down." He never once gave an indication that somebody should be writing something down.
To me, that tells a lot of the story. If this whole business of salvation was as detailed and specific as some christians want to make it to be, then Jesus would have been more dilligent about making sure somebody was writing down everything He said.
Like God did with Moses. He said, "listen to me and write this down."
//I can see what you are trying to say. Here is where I see a drastic difference. Let's say you came home and your child was doing something blasphemous, like say, ripping pages out of the bible, or wrote something pretty offensive about God on the wall. I don't think you would drown her in the bathtub to “teach her a lesson.” Truly this would be horrible. I think any reasonable parent might put their child in time out and explain “why we don't do that.”//
DeleteOf course I wouldnt drown my child. But to the same respect, I dont have a concept of eternity like God does. We see death as very final. To God, death just means you get to be with Him now. It's not as big of a deal. God knows there's more after death. We do not.
Of course I am speculating. But at the end of the day I kind of have the attitude of "You spoke existance into being. I am not going to argue with you."
And ultimately, no amount of rebellion will change whether or not God exists. It doesn't even matter if God is a ruthless, terrible, mean, dictator. If He created the universe, what chance do we have to change that? And sure we can "question" God and say He has some explaining to do, but I am pretty sure, it doesn't work that way. Similar to when an employee feels that the owner of the company needs to "justify" themselves or answer to the employees. It just doesn't work that way.
//You see, I don't think there is a "punishment" so to speak. The punishment only comes in, if you refuse grace....However, if you say "No thank you" and you deny grace, then you are forced to deal with the consequences of your transgressions...He (if there is a gender) is sovereign and loves us. //
DeleteI think this is a main point we have to agree to disagree about. I don't really see "punishment forever" vs "grace because you worship me" as really a choice. If the mafia came to my house and threatened to beat me up every day (even worse if I go to the police), or pay me well to collaborate with them, that would be messed up. Or, if someone told you to tell them that you love them, and if they didn't they would punch you in the face until you said you did.
//And ultimately, no amount of rebellion will change whether or not God exists. It doesn't even matter if God is a ruthless, terrible, mean, dictator. If He created the universe, what chance do we have to change that?//
You and I agree on this point though. Whatever his/her/their personalities, wouldn't disprove the existence of Gods, if they are there. Zeus, Athena, Ares etc were all horrible Gods, but establishing that they exist or don't exist. Polyneices gave us fire, which was our salvation and punished for doing so. You could say he was like the serpent of the Bible. I give equal weight to the probability of the existence of all Gods. To be fair. :)
With the employee model, what about when people work for companies like Enron, JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs etc? Companies that operate unethically. Isn't it their moral duty to be whistle blowers to such behavior? It's quite sad, but often this makes you a pariah in whatever industry you are in. But, at least they have the option of quitting their job. Sure, it will be rough for a while, but there's always unemployment. If you don't want to "work for God", you suffer forever.
Eternity. Again, scary.. Especially as you admit, we really don't know for sure what happens after death. I think the stake that people put in speculation can be quite terrifying to say the least.
I almost think we are at a point where we are going to just have to agree to disagree. :)
The BBQ analogy was more about not accepting a gift. You are going a little deeper with te idea then I had anticipated. Not necessarily wrong, just not where I was going with it.
DeleteAnd as far as "punishment forever" the Bible doesnt say anything about punishment forever that I am aware of.
There is a mistranslation of the word "forever" from the greek word "aionon." Aionon doesnt mean forever, as it has been translated. It has two meanings. The first is to describe a "period of time."
the second meaning is to describe a period of time that is so intense that time seems to be altered. For example "I was so bored, time seemed to drag on." or how people describe that time flies when you are having fun.
DeleteThis leads me to believe that even if someone chooses to reject God because they don't want anything to do with Him, they can possibly change their mind later.
Ultimately, I do not know for sure. Nobody does. I have to do some speculating, as everyone does, but my speculation comes from studying the scriptures in the original languages and context. Rather than trying to read 4000 year old texts in my air conditioned home with wireless internet, and thinking for a moment that I can possibly relate.
You know what I mean.
//I almost think we are at a point where we are going to just have to agree to disagree. :)//
I actually thought that's what we have been doing all along. Just bouncing questions and ideas off of each other. :-)
"I often listen to my atheist friends talk about how much they don't like God and all His "rules." It makes me wonder how many of them truly don't believe in God, vs are just being rebelious children."
ReplyDeleteI've never really been a fan of this kind of reasoning. I actually wrote a post about this kind of thing a while ago. As far as not believing in God and also not liking his rules, whether or not he exists the rules are very real. The supposed rules of God have a negative impact on society in my opinion. I'm sure you disagree, but from my perspective they do more harm than good. Religion had a very negative impact on my childhood so I do not like God, even though I don't think he exists.
I hear what you are saying Hausdorff. And this is my reasoning. If a person says he hates "gays" because the Bible tells him to. I would respond by saying "The bible doesnt tell us to hate gays. You are just an asshole."
DeleteThe Bible doesn't make "good" people do "bad" things. What the Bible does, is tell hundreds of stories over time. SOme stories are good, some are inspirational, some are bad, some are horrific. If a person is a jerk, they will act accordingly.
I do not put any responsibility on the Bible or God. I blame the person who is being a jerk.
Very well put. I have nothing to add here, but I love what you just said :)
DeleteThat was interesting.. Actually, I did a quick search and came across this artcile from CARM about hell. http://carm.org/hell-eternal They also mention the word aionon, but I guess they think differently. o.O
ReplyDeleteYeah, the scholarly world is pretty divided about what aionon really means. It seems that the fundamentalists want to give it a true meaning of eternal (forever and ever) and the more liberal groups completely disagree. It gets down to "who do you believe?" It is very confusing which to me, gives more weight to the idea that God wasn't as concerned about the details as we are.
DeleteI run into the "which expert do you trust" problem alot. Even in science, you get different groups of scientists making different claims and it becomes difficult to identify who really knows what they are talking about. Gerald Schroeder comes to mind. He has a triple PHD in physics and teaches at M.I.T. He has some works in regards to reconciling physics with God's creation. It is amazing to me how often an atheist with zero background in physics, tries to poke holes in his theories. I always ask the same question "Where are the other physicists? Why arent they criticizing him?" I usually get aresponse of something like "because he is so stupid, they won't even waste their time."
Which is really ignorant because there are several atheists who have made it their lifes work to dispute and/or embarrass a christian every chance they get.
Interesting.. So, they apply different definitions to the word based on the situation. The point of the article I took away, is that the same phrase is applied to both heaven and hell.. I decided to look up the verses they were talking about in all of the translations of the Bible. It seems like the words they use are “eternal,” “everlasting” and “forever”.. (using Bible Study Tools) Matt 25:46 or 2 Thes. 1:9 or Jude 1:7 Jude 1:13 or Rev 14:11 or Matthew 3:12 or Revelations 19:3 or Luke 3:17 or even Mark 9:43.
Delete...the unanimous consent among all the translations of the Bible seems to be “eternal.” My German is still pretty rusty, but they also seem to say the same thing. It's been five years since I studied there. The French translation, I couldn't really say, since I only took a semester in college and the Spanish, its been too many years to say for sure. I won't cite the verses the author cites and describes in the original Greek (for Heaven and Hell).
You do talk about how this mortal life is on a different scale as that of an eternal Being.. According to the translations, it sounds like an “indefinite punishment for a finite crime.” If the Nazis came to my door, I'd much rather suffer the consequences and stand up for my morals than work with something I find morally obscene.
Maybe, this conversation should carry over to your Hell blog post.
When it comes to the “PhD” guy, I really don't know enough about him to say anything at all. The difference between science and religion or faith is that in science there are testable/falsifiable hypotheses (sp?). Faith is by definition, belief without evidence. Dogma, as you admit, is arguing about things that we cannot verify or disprove one way or another. To me, this is pointless. Regardless, PhD's don't necessarily make you right.